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Author
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Topic: 12GA FH Rifle/Shotgun Wildcattting-
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-28-2007 01:34 AM
     
I'm a visitor here relating a 12ga wildcatting project
a few have worked on, over on the AR Forum.It's
called the 12GA From Hell, a long brass 12ga case we
made by putting 12ga size rims on BMG brass. Rob on
AR put it in a Big Borchardt falling block action,
and I put it in a Savage 210 12ga and a NEF Ultra
12ga slug gun. We get huge kinetic energy from these loads,
as well as some great loads on regular plastic cases
in our testing.1st pic is of the case and 2nd pic is
the Savage. Our chambers will still fire regular
cases also.Our long case gets more power than a BMG
and regular plastic case testing has gotten power
better than 458Win.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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speedbump
264 RLB #2 |
Posts: 2298
From: Southern Illinois-USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 09-28-2007 03:34 AM
Ed, WELCOME to the RLB. I think you'll find a super friendly & helpful bunch here. Plus we're always happy to hear about new stuff. I've been seeing & hearing a bit about your project - pretty impressive stuff. When you get time, I'm sure some of the lads would love to hear specifics about the external & terminal ballistics of the 12GFH. Feel free to jump in anywhere......
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-28-2007 10:58 AM
Thankyou Speedbump-- First acurracy, Rob with his scoped
Borchardt can put them in what is one hole at 50 yds.
With my bad eyes and the peep sights on Savage I do
3-4 inches at 50 yds. This is with heavy loads, being
600gr slug in Savage at 3000 or same slug at 2400 in
the NEF.Her are two pics of some the slugs tested,
lead and turned brass.NEF barrel is rifled and the
one on Savage is a heavy rifled one we added.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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Rex Rat
Supreme Member
Posts: 905
From: Salisbury, Md. USA
Registered: Feb 2007
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posted 09-28-2007 11:54 AM
Howdy and welcome!
Are those solids by GS in Africa? That looks like fun. what is the recoil with a full house.
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 09-28-2007 02:29 PM
Rex Rat- The solids were made by Bridger Bullets,
like the on on the left at 750 gr, anf then I
made a few spitzer ones from them at 630 gr,
and the shorter round nose at 500 gr. Just to test
to se how they work. These I had made with hollow base
so I would have a long bearing surface and I could add
wt and go up to 1100 gr. I got 1100 gr to 2500 plus in
the Savage couple times. Good slug for buffalo or
dinosuars. The lead slugs we tested were Dixie heat treated
600gr, 750 gr, and another type 870 gr heat treated.
These take any velocity without leading the barrel.Like
600 gr at max of 3400 fps, no leading.
Recoil in Savage very easy, but we cheated, the gun is
25lbs with thick pad. Could be lighten to 19 lbs for the
field. The Nef is 15 lbs, but we don't load it as heavy
so recoil is still easy.Here is pic of NEF, We just
lengthened chamber on original heavy barrel, added
thumbhole stock with wt in it. I just, in Nef,tested 3.5"
plastic cases with 600 gr and our slower powder
loads, getting 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from
plastic cases!!!!Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 10-13-2007 03:17 AM
Here is picture of an Enfield that I did a
conversion on like the old Mauser shotguns were
redone from Mauser 98 actions. The Enfield
can handle 12ga size cases this way. I have it chambered
for my 700H belted cartridge, which is also made from
BMG brass.I added two rear locking lugs to the bolt for
big cartridge strength.We are also doing an 8GA FH
on an Enfield.Ed
[Edited 2 times. Last edit by hubel458 on 11-19-2007 at 07:35 PM]
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Hoosier5
Senior Member
Posts: 244
From: Back Woods Of Kentucky
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 10-13-2007 12:34 PM
Just wondering how much recoil that 12ga. wildcat have, Ed??
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 10-13-2007 12:50 PM
Hoosier5--If you left the guns in original
lightweight setup with hard pads, recoil
would be really hard. But with good stock, thick
pad and weight they are much easier to shoot.
I test them for load work and chrono work on a
tall bench so recoil is handled ok without
me being in a bad position. I shoot standing
not setting so it's comfortable. Ed------------------
Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 10-23-2007 10:28 PM
Here is picture of 600gr at 3000 making a 6 gallon
pail of water disapear.Fired from Savage. Ed
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Ed Hubel
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Tailgunner
Supreme Member
Posts: 1634
From: Whittemore, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-24-2007 07:39 AM
Welcome aboard Ed, and I still want to get back over your way but haven't been able to free up enough time (only comming home every other weekend dosn't leave much extra time for visiting).Hoosier5
You'll know when it goes off, but after putting a 1/2 dozen rounds through Ed's Savage I'm not afraid to go back for more . Ed has a well shaped stock and the weight of the rifle helps a lot with recoil, and the forward weight does wonders for keeping the muzzle jump under control.
That's Ed and Robs 12gaFH on the right, also in the back row is a 577 T-Rex, a 600 Nitro Express, Rob's 600 Overkill and a 700 Nitro Expresss. The "little" guys in the front row are the 32H&R Mag and a 500 S&W Mag Edit to fix picture [Edited 1 time by Tailgunner on 10-24-2007 at 07:41 AM]
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j1
Supreme Member
Posts: 7689
From: NEPA
Registered: Jul 2003
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posted 10-27-2007 10:49 AM
Dear hubel458,Until I became an old man I was intimidated by very little, but just looking at that round impresses me. I would like to be present when one was touched off. Then just MAYBE I might ask to shoot a round. What was the reason for developing it? I cannot imagine any game animal needing that much power. It is a truly impressive cartridge. I bet that you have to lean into it before you squeeze the trigger. ------------------
jpz
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 10-27-2007 05:02 PM
Rob the fella who started this and gave it that name,
wanted big rifle power in a legal shotgun. The chamber
will fire regular plastic cases also. We both wanted
brass cases that last and are good for slug loading
and we got that. And then it got a life of its own
with a lot of other 12ga, etc ideas being tested.
With me the testing and research is the end, a real
fun hobby.Like what is shown in the following
picture.My 28GA FH, our 12GA FH, and my 8GA FH.
The latter is regular shotgun caliber, and its chamber
wil lfire 8ga plastic cases as well as brass ones..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 11-10-2007 01:31 AM
Had a light barrel 87 12ga replica now
we have this Long Tom slug gun.....Ed 
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Ed Hubel [Edited 1 time by hubel458 on 11-10-2007 at 01:32 AM]
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 11-19-2007 07:37 PM
Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel. We setup an Enfield for 8ga.
In the 87 long barreled gun we will be testing
Breneke slugs. Guys are reporting good accuracy
in smooth and rifled barrels. The pictured barrel
on 87 is smooth and we will see how the
slugs in pic stand some speed.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-01-2007 01:05 AM
Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
This is a heavy barrel for that type of load,
don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed
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Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-13-2007 02:41 AM
In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed
And going heavier in 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed ------------------
Ed Hubel
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speedbump
264 RLB #2 |
Posts: 2298
From: Southern Illinois-USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-13-2007 12:05 PM
Good stuff Ed. That's still some pretty smokin' performance. There's sure not many people wildcatting shotguns, but I like the idea !This year we ended up using 3" Winchester 7/8oz. sabots going @2,000fps. Recoil was snotty out of the little H&R single shots. Accurate, but dandy recoil ... had to superglue my buddy's eyebrow back together. Curious thing too - they zip through chest cavities so fast there's not much of an exit wound, and the usual extensive internal damage. Even a headshot left minimal visible damage. They certainly do not cause an instant stop when double lunged. The Buckhammers are developing a good reputation around here, FWIW.
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-13-2007 12:31 PM
I hear the Winchesters are harder than others.
The Buckhammers are soft and seem to make
bigger wound channel. As for recoil add a couple lbs
in the butt. Beats the hell out of funny eyebrows.
Is your H&R the heavy barrel one? Heavy barrel ones
are 3lbs more than the skinny barreled ones.Ed------------------
Ed Hubel [Edited 1 time by hubel458 on 12-13-2007 at 12:32 PM]
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speedbump
264 RLB #2 |
Posts: 2298
From: Southern Illinois-USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-13-2007 07:52 PM
Yep, heavy barrel. Looks like a Glock barrel as thick as the walls are. The recoil's tolerable if you're ready for it. My buddy took a quick shot at a suddenly appearing doe from an unsupported sitting position - hence the 'brow being close to the rear objective.  I agree about the hardness of the Winchester sabots. I saw the same thing with their 180gr .40 pistol rounds- lots of penetration, little expansion. They'd be an excellent projectile for buffalo, large bear, or moose. Way, way too much for thin skinned game.
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whitelitenin
Supreme Member
Posts: 1001
From: Eagleville, TN
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 12-15-2007 02:02 PM
I bet you all have already tried this. I got an H&R 45/410 survivor model. I sent the barrel back to the factory and had a scope base put on. I assume this is the weaker shotgun only frame, although they will hang 12 gauge barrels on it. I got some Magtech 410 brass with large pistol primer pockets. There is some hunting land that is shotgun only, and I feel safe with making "slug" loads in cases that are marked 410 on the headstamp. It sure would be nice to get 460 S&W performance or better! How should I start? ------------------
Every advantage has a disadvantage! Dennis
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-15-2007 03:24 PM
The only shotgun barrels they put on those are the
slim ones, so it would be better to get an 12ga
Ultra Slug gun for the hairier loads.Our loads with
larger amounts of slower powders are for heavy barrels
on the SB2 frame. You frame is SB1 or a lesser earlier
models. The 12ga Ultra is SB2 and good plastic cases
with mag shotgun primers are better than cases with
small rifle primers, and good plastic is stronger than
the balloon head magtech.Our slower powder loads need
a stronger primer like mag shotgun primers.Ed------------------
Ed Hubel [Edited 1 time by hubel458 on 12-15-2007 at 04:32 PM]
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whitelitenin
Supreme Member
Posts: 1001
From: Eagleville, TN
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 12-16-2007 03:59 PM
Thanks for the advice on the magtech brass. I guess I will start carefully with T/C 45 colt loads in my magtech brass and a new pound of H4227. I don't think I could seat a 45 colt bullet in a plastic case, and get it to chamber. The barrel is the same diameter in the chamber area as the 12 gauge barrels. I believe the frame is the weak link. By the way, why are there no sights or scopes on any of your pictures of the 12GFH firearms? ------------------
Every advantage has a disadvantage! Dennis
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-16-2007 05:34 PM
When I get guns done and are testing and doing load
developement I take pictures. Then the sights come later..
That way they aren't in the way if I have to do
chamber polishing or barrel work. I have sights on
Savage, NEF, my two 458HE, my 585HE. No sights yet
on the 87 levergun or the 700H Enfield.Your 45 Long Colt brass may be fine, it is the Magtech
12GA brass that is ballonhead. I've section some and
they are real thin in the head each side of primer
pocket.To check your 45 lC cases just section one
and you will seee whether they are strong or weak.Ed ------------------
Ed Hubel [Edited 1 time by hubel458 on 12-16-2007 at 05:38 PM]
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hubel458
Senior Member
Posts: 279
From: Brinton, MI
Registered: Sep 2007
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posted 12-23-2007 10:14 PM
10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. Factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
Federal factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave 1750 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. We roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic.Used one .050 wad.Ed
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Ed Hubel
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speedbump
264 RLB #2 |
Posts: 2298
From: Southern Illinois-USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 12-24-2007 05:09 AM
That'll make a hole in something Ed !!! 
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