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Author
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Topic: 7.7 mm Jap
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CADDYSHACK
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posted 09-25-2002 01:41 PM
     
I have been trying to locate some brass for the 7.7 mm japanese arisaka (7.7 x 58 jap.). it is very expensive and in limited quantity. also i've read where someone has used 30'06 brass and necked it down. but i would think the brass would need to be reformed to close the gaps in dimensions, but how do you reform the case? if anyone knows answers to where i can find some brass at a resonable price, or about the 30'06 email me or post it.
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JS_280
Senior Member
Posts: 118
From: Gulf Shores, AL United States
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-25-2002 03:30 PM
Well, here's two options....Buy preformed brass from Buffalo Arms for $27/100
Or here's a post from another website on how to form from .30-06 brass... quote:
7.7x58mm Arisaka case type rimless bottleneck.Case length 2.27 Use .310 bullets Form from 3006 using the following process. 1. full length size in 7.7 jap die, trim to 2.27 2. Fire form case to chamber.
a. cci large rifle primer, 2.5 grains of unique shot gun powder,
place small amount of tissue/toilet paper to hold powder in place, fill half way with corn meal, cover with tissue to keep in place, Donot pack tightly. Fire round in bucket. wear safety glasses. Then full length size in 7.7 die and you are in business. You need to buy a lyman reloading manual for 7.7 to get data. Have fun. Annealing helps before you start the case work. b. fill small flat pan with 1/2 inch of water. stand 3006 cases in water, take small house propane torch( do this out side) apply heat to shoulder area of case, only til the case STARTS to change color, then tip it over in the pan. this will soften the case shoulder area, and allow it to stretch instead of the base of the case where you need it. Hope this helps. Ron
I should warn you though that two others on that forum said that they have gone the forming route and the cases look like they have excessive bulging at the base. One said he could only get 2 loadings before the cases split. Looking at the price from Buffalo arms, it would probably be hard to beat that price even forming them yourself. Hope this helps some!
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Handloader
Supreme Member
Posts: 1290
From: N.E., Oklahoma USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 09-25-2002 05:11 PM
I would opt for purchasing new brass and forget about the headaches of making it out of 30-06 brass. Also you can find reloading data in the Sierra manual or I posted information copied from this manual on this forum just do a search on 7.7 jap. 
It was posted by Greg in pet loads on 8-29-02
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Load More to Shoot More Often[This message has been edited by Handloader (edited 09-25-2002).]
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petie3
Supreme Member
Posts: 2768
From: Redlands CA USA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-30-2002 01:02 AM
I would bite the bullet (so to speak) and buy a box or two of Norma factory, then reload it.
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flashman
Junior Member
Posts: 32
From: Myerstown,PA,USA
Registered: May 2001
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posted 10-07-2002 12:19 PM
Graf & Sons has an advertisement for 7.7 and 6.5 Jap that is supposedly coming out in 2003. I was told that Hornady will be making the brass, and it will be much cheaper than Norma brass.
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MC1911
Supreme Member
Posts: 4975
From: NC
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-07-2002 04:16 PM
I would have to agree with JS-280. I have reformed some brass experiencing at times good results, other times not so good. Reforming brass can all be a royal pain especially after so much time and effort you find that the case dimensions aren't where they should, or you wind up with limited reloads. Norma factory goes for about $42.00 a box and you can reload from there. The price on Norma brass is $63.00 per 100. If you do decide to reform when annealing the brass keep the water deep enough to submerge a little more than half the case. I'd go with the Buffalo Arms brass. Maybe your best option.------------------
SAFE SHOOTING, MC
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wizard93
Supreme Member
Posts: 827
From: Huntington, WV USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-07-2002 04:22 PM
Caddyshack:
Can't help you on the brass here, but everywhere I read says that any bullet used in the 303 British will work in the 7.7 Jap. Also, the velocities of the 7.7 will usually be no more than 100 fps than the 303. The Sierra manual shows the IMR 4895 powder suited for both the 150 and 180 gr bullets. I agree with JS 280 about buying preformed brass. But the quality of Norma brass is so good, with neck sizing, one batch of that stuff should last most of the gun's practical life. Hope this helps. 
wizard93
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tdobesh
Senior Member
Posts: 242
From: Lincoln, NE, U.S.A.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-08-2002 09:32 AM
I've contacted hornady on the 6.5, 7.7 Jap. brass and apparently for those 2 calibers they will be using norma brass. I guess knowing that I'm not expecting it to be much if any cheaper than norma factory brass. I wish there were a good alternative to norma since I have several rifles in both these calibers.------------------
Tom
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wizard93
Supreme Member
Posts: 827
From: Huntington, WV USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-09-2002 05:33 PM
tdobesh:
Which 6.5 is it? Are you looking for brass for it too?
wizard93
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CADDYSHACK
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posted 10-09-2002 11:39 PM
Thank you for all your responces on my questions. i think i'll order from buffalo.
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tdobesh
Senior Member
Posts: 242
From: Lincoln, NE, U.S.A.
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-13-2002 03:55 AM
Wizard93,The 6.5 I was referring to in this case was the 6.5X50 Jap. I'm always interested in a good deal on ammunition or brass. If I can get a good deal on the brass absolutely I'm more interested in the brass. Just over the past couple of months I've started doing some forming of 6.5 Jap on both the 35 Rem. and the 220 swift, but frankly I'd rather be spending time shooting than screwing around forming brass. The main reason I looked into forming it is because I find the norma prices a little steep for what their product gains in quality over some of the less expensive manufacturers. Don't get me wrong here. I feel that norma brass is of great quality, just not enough better to justify the difference in price. Unfortunately myself liking unusual cartridges there are several for which norma seems to be the only game in town. If you have any good information on low price brass for the Jap. cartridges other than grafs I'm all ears. By the way I'm a big fan of all of the 6.5mm cartridges. Unfortunately,  the big hole in my collection is a nice early production  Mod. 70 Winchester in 264 Win. Mag.! Thanks in advance for any help or information! ------------------
Tom
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Tailgunner
Supreme Member
Posts: 1539
From: Whittemore, MI, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 10-13-2002 07:51 AM
I'm the guy that will only reload them twice.
Note that the rifle that I'm loading them for is a "late war mod 99" and it has a oversize chamber.
While the cases arn't seperating, I'm just not comfortable running them thru the rifle more than 3 times due to the amount of visable bulging (I see the same thing with factory Norma ammo also) and how much the brass is being worked in the pressure ring area. However, as this is my Amish neighbors hunting (and only) rifle, the batch of 50 I made him should be good for another 7-10 years (times 3 and I won't need to make anymore brass for his rifle for quite a while).
I found it easiest to trim off the bulk of the brass first, than to move the shoulder back in stages (start with the die "up" 4 turns, than come down 1 turn and run them thru again, etc) until they just fit into the rifles chamber. Trim to final length, load and fire.
Try the 180gr .312 bullets made for the 303 British[This message has been edited by Tailgunner (edited 10-13-2002).]
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huntarizona
Senior Member
Posts: 296
From: Ft. Huachuca Az USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-13-2002 12:49 PM
The base diameter of this caliber is much larger than the .30-06 or similar cases and therefore cannot be safely used for forming. Norma cases or ammunition in the respective caliber is recommend.
I got this from Huntington catalog when I was looking at there case froming die that they don't even sell anymore.
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MC1911
Supreme Member
Posts: 4975
From: NC
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-13-2002 02:25 PM
huntaz - check the dimensions again. Base diameter of an '06 is .470. Base dia. of the 7.7 Arisaka is .472. .002 isn't much larger. All other dimensions are equally close except for case length, the '06 is longer by .210, and the shoulder dia. is .441 compared to .431 on the 7.7. In my opinion reforming is a pain but if a reloader is willing to spend the time and effort there should be no problem in converting '06 to 7.7. The only possible problem may be an oversized chamber in the 7.7 rifle, in which case you would also have problems with new factory 7.7.------------------
SAFE SHOOTING, MC
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huntarizona
Senior Member
Posts: 296
From: Ft. Huachuca Az USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-13-2002 11:57 PM
I cut and copied that from huntington's catalog I'm not saying it is not possible. But in the long run it probably just easier to buy the Norma brass and not have to worry about it anymore just load up a hundred rounds and it will probably last the individual for the life of the rifle. You wouldn't think you would burn up a hundred rounds a year unless you are varmint hunting with the rifle or just shooting it constantly.
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MC1911
Supreme Member
Posts: 4975
From: NC
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 10-14-2002 10:18 AM
huntsaz - I couldn't agree more. Buying brass would definitely be the easiest route. For what it would cost for reforming dies, and the time it would take to refrom, you could buy the brass. Unless it would be shot frequently that brass would probably last for a long time. All I was inferring to is reforming is a viable option using .30-06 brass. At one time I would have decided to reform. Today I would buy the brass and be done with it.
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SAFE SHOOTING, MC
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smaug
New Member
Posts: 5
From: Edgewood, NM, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-19-2002 03:09 AM
It might actually be more cost effective to rechamber the 7.7 Jap into 30-'06. A very common conversion made after WWII with many of the 7.7's brought back by G.I.s. The Jap action is actually considered one of the strongest military bolt actions of its day. I currently have quite a few old Japs that have been converted to a variety of calibers, usually via a barrel change. But the 6.5's can be easily rechambered to any of the larger American 6.5's or 264's (260's), and the 7.7 is most easily converted to 30-'06 with an '06 chamber reamer. Just use the larger diameter bullets intended for the .303 or 7.62x39 or the like. In the long run it's probably cheaper than buying a bunch on Norma brass.
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wizard93
Supreme Member
Posts: 827
From: Huntington, WV USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-19-2002 05:14 PM
It might in a way be cheaper to rechamber the 7.7 into a 30-06, considering the chamber is relatively tight. Otherwise, you're still gonna run into the problem with the .473 base diameter requirement of the 7.7. If the chamber is presently .473, then even when the chamber is reamed out for 30-06, it will still have the base diameter of .473. The 30-06 base diameter is .470. If you're complaining about the obvious bulge in the pressure ring area of the case when in 7.7 chambering, you'll still have the same problem if you chamber it in 30-06. Same problem I'm having with my .303. It has a loose chamber, leaving my brass bulged at the pressure ring area. Soooo....I fireformed some 30-40 Krag brass to fit it. Problem solved. 303 British brass has .450 base diameter, my 30-40 Krag brass has .453 base diameter.
wizard93
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smaug
New Member
Posts: 5
From: Edgewood, NM, USA
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-20-2002 03:13 AM
Wiz is right, there is a 3/1000 or .003 difference in base diameter. But I've got to be honest, my eyes are getting old and I can't hardly see .003 difference. Try taking a micrometer and dialing in .003 to see how small that is, and it's across the entire diameter of the base, on each side it would only be a .0015 difference. Military ammo is designed to be pretty stong at the web and base. I wonder what kind of problems that would bring about if any?
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wizard93
Supreme Member
Posts: 827
From: Huntington, WV USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 10-26-2002 12:38 AM
smaug:
.003" can make a lot of difference in a rifle chamber. Right now, I'm setting out to prove it by seeing how many reloads I can wring out of using 30-40 Krag brass in the 303 as opposed to using the Winchester .303 British brass. I'll keep you posted when I find out.
wizard93
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