Here is a little info on the 6.5 JDJ.

X-VERMINATOR

BTW, purely in the vein of humor, someone said "dont get yer panties in a bunch"...and i have to share the mental image i got temporarily...a late middle aged, big muscular ex marine in lingerie (shudder) Please refrain from such allegories (or is that a metaphor?) as I cant afford a therapist...lmao

the whole back and forth thing kinda reminds me about fistfighting about whose quarter is up on the pool table next...lol

lmFao...

ajay, i admire your courage, enthusiasm, and general "testicular fortitude", particularly in a kid of your age.

d@mnit, i LIKE this kid...

on a lighter note...this whole thread is kinda cute and entertaining, really. I remember reading in a reloading manual article "bring up the subject of what caliber/projectile to use for elk, and you are gonna be in for a long, opinionated argument over the campfire that night." and BOY was that guy right.

we shuld just load testosterone in a sprinkler setup and let fly. lol. some of us are close to p!ssing in the corners to mark our territory...lol.

PS - ajay338...we wanna see some pics of what the 338 does to 'yotes...enquiring minds wanna know...

quote:

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Originally posted by hotrod26:
...I myself have killed elk with the 300 Savage...

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I also own a 300 Savage and while it will work for Elk, it falls on the very low end of adequate cartridges for Elk. Hunting conditions and distances are very limited.

quote:

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Originally posted by hotrod26:
...It is all in shot placement and reasonable range...

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This goes for any hunting cartridge and/or firearm, regardless of caliber or velocity!

quote:

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Originally posted by hotrod26:
...As for the 338 and other big bore magnums I believe they are used because the shooter is afraid he can't make a descent shot and needs the extra power to make up for his substandard performance...

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Wow, that's a very arrogant and opinionated statement, especially for a first post! So if I went Elk hunting and chose to use my 338 mag (which I don't own) over my 300 Savage, it's because I fear my performance is substandard? I guess it would have nothing to do with the possibility of the Elk being 400 yards away and that the 300 Savage is an inadequate cartridge for Elk at this distance.

I am by far one of those magnumitis shooters/hunters, but the discussion of standard cartridges versus magnum cartridges is one that has been beaten to death.

You also seemed to have dug up a thread that it so old, it should have been archived. (Note to self: start archiving more threads!). On top of that, I don't think the member who even started this thread is around anymore. Nor is his email address an active one, since his email notification that someone replied to his thread is being returned to me (now deactivated).

Actually an old guide up there pointed out to us that these people tend to use what was cheapest and most available. And though while drinking in the bars, they will all claim to be crack shots. The truth is there are a lot of wounded animals running around up there. And one should always keep an eye and ear out for a wounded moose or bear.

I have personally came across a few deer that had small caliber holes near the vitals that looked like they had run quite a ways before they dropped. Either the idiot that shot them couldn't find them or just didn't bother to look.

Now if you aren't an experienced Elk hunter, why on god's earth would you be looking to go with the lightest caliber you could get by with? If that big critter runs off cause you didn't get it just right the first time, what are you gonna do? Stand there and shrug your shoulders and say "oh well, there's more where that came from."???? Then run out and try it again and again until you finally knock one down with the lightest caliber you can?

A heated discusion and I didn't cause it,that is good to hear.

I have to say I love my .338 ultra mag. You know cutting holes at 100 is good with any gun . This goes for magnums too.

I own a 30-30. I always have loved this gun. But like Sedstar I know it's limitations.

I have a problem hunting where I don't have enough gun. If I can see 500 yds I better have a 500yd killin machine with me.
Oh I get the B.S well that is hunting you can't always kill. This maybe true. But that is my one mission when I leave the house. KILL , KILL and not cripple. I have a real problem with people tryin to prove manhood by killing big animals with small guns.

If the shot is a guess. It should not have ever been taken. And any big game killed over 400 yds "just my opinion" without a magnum is a guess. I know it has been done before but, heck I use to try it before I grew up. Dang people kill elk with Bow and Arrow...I want go there. That should tell you it takes less to drop one than you think.

Magum guns were created to insure a quick ethical kill. I use my 30-30 alot. And thanks to these guys my 45-70.
But you can't over kill something . Dead is dead. But I know thousands are setting somewhere wishing they would't have brought a knife to a gun fight.

This year one 140 grain triple shock dropped a big(over 1000 lb) bison with one shot. You just have to know where to hit them.

Do you a guy named "Chet" Bechtold?

At Close range. I am a Holiday fan for sure. Val Kilmer in Tombstone prob. the best.

He got his knife from his pocket because the gunfighter was looking at the gun not the hand, Sure they didn't get shot but they were still dead.

Same reason. I have been Teaching self defense for all the years. Dont watch the hands and feet ,watch the Head and body. Where the head goes the body has to follow.

When your looking for the wrong thing you might see what you want but find out you were looking in the wrong place!!!

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HEAD SHOTS DON'T LEAVE BLOOD TRAILS !

quote:

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Originally posted by MrGnA:
Shuntz,

Do you a guy named "Chet" Bechtold?

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MrGnA,

you dont want to have a pistol in your hand if the enemy is holding down on you a hundred yards away with a rifle. By the same token, if your opponent has a good scope 400 yds away and you have iron sights, you are equally screwed.

a boxer most often feels quite in control of a physical confrontation, but they will begrudgingly admit to being entirely out of their element if their opponent suddenly steps very close to them...like cheek to cheek, and shows knowledge of how to wrestle at even the rudimentary high school level...a boxer off his feet will flop around like a fish out of water if he has no grappling experience. But this is about distance...a boxer requires arms length to operate efficiently. Cheek to cheek is trapping distance, or grappling distance. Punching is of limited value here.

Amateurs drawing a gun will usually commit one or more of the cardinal mistakes. They will draw it too late, either missing the threat, or underestimating it, or have been scared about pulling it in mistake, and it might be too late by then. They might try to draw it too quickly in fear, and mess it up under adrenaline, or worse, if the triger is not protected, get their finger on the trigger while it is coming out of the holster and shoot themselves in the leg/hip/foot.

A professional is generally taught, believe it or not, to slow down their draw...or more accurately, not to RUSH it. The aim is for a smooth clean draw. Speed comes later with experience and muscle memory. From the time the eyes notice the threat, and the mind thinks to get the gun into the hand, and the draw is completed, it is often times a full second. This is a very short period of time for an unruly drunk making vague threats and gentures...or a very long period of time for someone who is waiting for you to draw a gun or a knife.

This is why when you practice drawing, you are also working on footwork, to put distance between the target and yourself.

If you DO pull a knife in a gunfight, you are looking for the opposite...to quickly close the distance suddenly, with a simultaneous draw/open blade movement. The one thing I notice about people that claim to have a knife for protection, is that it is too often a folding lockblade (or worse, a non-locking blade...this will cut your finger off!), and much worse, it is in a purse, a pocket, a belt holster, etc.

I would not reccomend using a knife in a close quarters scenario unless ALL of the conditions are met:

(1) you should have at least a working knowledge of grappling skills, the more the better. You would be surprised how even a small, seemingly weak opponent can effectively offset a knife (or gun...) hand by grabbing the wrist with both hands. You might be much larger and stronger, but a much smaller and weaker opponent with both hands on the same wrist can bring about a surprising amount of rotational torque. Remember that you have initiated an arms length (or closer...) encounter, and you should be prepared for it.

(2) you have to be fast, and accurate. and very, very confident. This would be one of those things that requires much more work than the average person is willing to put forth to be proficient at. The movements cant be second guessed, they would have to be instinctive.

(3) some limited knowledge of anatomy is essential. Most people tend to slash, in strong, broad, stiff-armed strokes. This leads to largely superficial (though disconcerting...) wounds primarily on the outside of the arms and legs. You are trying to bleed the opponent...the majority of the largest veins and arteries close to the surface of the subcutaneous fat layers are located on the INSIDES of the thighs, arms, wrists, etc...nature and evolution has not placed them there by accident.

A few tips, should you decide to take (or be forced...) to take this route:

(1) have a sharp knife. This seems obvious, but belt-clipped ("handy" knives...) tend to get used daily and have a horrible edge.

(2) DO NOT use a non-locking folding knife...it will collapse at the first backslash and cut a finger off.

(3) a fixed blade is best...but make sure it has a full tang. The tang is the portion of the blade that continues into the handle. If it is a really cheap knife, the tang is non existent and the blade will snap off with surprisingly small force. This tends to happen at the most inopportune moments.

(4) if you go the lockblade route, make sure you can open it like breathing with one hand. Most new knives have a thumb operated lever for this. I prefer a small automatic knife with a belt clip. On a curious sidenote, Maryland and a few other states allow switchblades if carried openly...a clip knife on a pocket or belt is considered open. It is imperative you have the blade open and locked or already open with ONE HAND from draw to blade presentation.

A decent off-brand automatic knife with a surprisingly sharp strong blade and a built in belt clip can be had for as little as 6 bucks. Consult knifeauction.com for this. 99% of them dont "look" like a stiletto, which screams "switchblade" to a cop...they appear to be small utility knives like handymen carry routinely. If you are worried about legality, "neuter" your knife. Take out the main screw the blade revolves around, it is usually a small hex head or crosshead...you will find a small circular spring. Throw it away. Reassemble it, and you will find it can be flicked open just as fast, and most people wont even realize it isnt a switchblade. Check this screw weekly. One mistake is not to check it, and when you grab the knife and depress the button, the blade will go flinging off into the weeds (ask me how i know this...lol). If you know this, the second most common mistake is to make it too tight...the knife wont open. This is common to even non-automatic lockblades.

General guidelines for use? Most people hold a knife like a screwdriver...blade up like they are holding an ice cream cone. It is very likely you will stumble and stab yourself during an encounter. I hold mine the opposite way. Blade down, like you are about to stab it into a countertop to leave it there, blade outwards from my forearm (for obvious reasons)

why? because if i stumble, i am much less likely to impale myself. I can still punch effectively. If punched, my hands held up in front of my face in a wresting/boxing defensive stance, the enemy will cut the sh!t out of himself trying to punch me. If he tries to grab my strong wrist (the one holding the knife...) he will be taking hold of the blade in his palm, and wont try it again. I can still slash with it, and if i stab, it will be in a BACK motion...this makes for much more force. Anyone who plays tennis will tell you their backhand is much more effective then their forehand. Also, if youre enemy ends up behind you, you cn still puncture him effectively.

The main thing about being effective with a knife is absolutely no different than a gun. You have to notice the threat beforehand. Just like a gun, a knife in hand gives the amateur a false sense of security. Know how to use the weaspon whether its a knife or a gun. Carry method and draw is important. You know not to carry a .22lr jennings used you bought for 50 bucks loose in a coat pocket with no holster? why carry a non locking penknife in a purse or pocket? You know to shoot an opponent in centermass, you should kow to slash for the insides of the arms and legs and not the outside. No difference, understand basic anatomy.

if you are ever having words with someone for whatever reason, and they quickly and smoothly have a knife appear in their hand, and it is held blade down, edge outwards way from their wrist and forearm, their feet wide apart, sight crouch for balance and movement, hands held in a classic boxing/wrestling defense...do not further the issue, they most likely know what they are doing with the blade.

The only good thing about a knfe from a defensive standpoint, is that two quick steps sideways or backwards takes you out of harms way. If you cant run, dont circle away from the knife...circle the other way. Most amateurs dont know to backslash or hold the knife properly, nor think to use it like that. Plus, when you go for the wrist, it is available.

People who wonder about efffective use of a knife offensively, or defending against it, and wish to get some idea, should discuss it with someone knowledgeable. A good defensive instructor whose emphasis is on grappling/wrestling, not the striking/punching/kicking karate instructor. They can demonstrate with rubber knives and guns, with wrestling mats around (useful when you come at them in a downwards stabbing motion and they sidestep and effectively send you over their hip and apply a decent arm bar)

For even more fun, let him take the barrel out of your automatic you love to carry, holster it the way you feel most comfortable. Then see if you can get it out effectively in time. A favorite parlor trick of mine is to grab the bicep of my friend when they are practicing draw. Close quarters combat has many subtleties, whether unarmed, knife, gun, beer bottle, what have you.

Just like target practice at the range without understanding draw and carry is deadly false confidence, so too is being too close to even an untrained opponent without knowing what to do. Discuss close quarters combat tricks/tips/weird stuff with a well trained state veteran officer (not a small town officer who takes karate once a week) or other trained professional, and it is a real eye opener.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Sorry I don't wish to rob you of the honor of having said it. I could not have done that speach any justice.

It would be a priviledge to have you speak at any one of my classes.

Yup a slow head makes for a fast hand. Most dangerous weapon you can carry is a focused mind. I listen to all you have said and am glad to hear it.

Greg I am glad to be on this site and am glad to hear people like this speak out. Also I am glad you have let this topic go on.

In all my years teaching the people I hated in the class the most were , law enforcement {sherrif dept}., ex - military{except special forces} young know it alls. All which have the least amount of actual training of all. Alll which I have been involved in.

The 2 weeks we spent on self-defense in basic training ,was just that ,basic. I feel sorry for millitary guys sent with such little knowledge of self defense. And law inforcement is even less. These people are there to protect me. I think they risk there lives that is a brave thing, but with such little training don't risk mine.

In the 25 years I have studied the martial arts. That was one of the best explanations of close combat I have heard.

I started in basic Karate{open hand}then to kick boxing whitchwas useless against an armed enemy. The last 5 years with an ex-seal team member. Whitch lead me to the Brazilians and there stile . Made the most sense to me and still does.

Oh we still do the demo's with chucks,staffs,swords,stars ,knives just for show but , that is all it is just show now.At one time,to some it was a way of life. From just strikes and kicks to ground submission I am just now understanding what it takes to survive. And every day I spend alittle time deapining the well.

Once again Thank you......Rob

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HEAD SHOTS DON'T LEAVE BLOOD TRAILS !